Pres Bush incompetent Theologian? (65 views) Subscribe   
  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Nov-21 2:12 pm  
To:  ALL   (1 of 26)  
 
  747.1  
 
It looks like President George Bush is possibly even more Theologically incompetent than even Ex President Jimmy Carter is. Carter only believes that God used evolution as the process of creation.
David

Bush: Christians, Muslims 
Worship Same God 

( BP) -- In an answer likely to upset evangelicals and other members of his Christian base, President Bush said Nov. 20 that Christians and Muslims worship the same God. 

Speaking at a joint news conference with British Prime Minister Tony Blair, Bush was asked his thoughts on how the war on terrorism and his promotion of freedom intersects with his Christian faith. 
"I do say that freedom is the Almighty's gift to every person," Bush answered. "I also condition it by saying freedom is not America's gift to the world. It's much greater than that, of course. And I believe we worship the same God." 

The answer was in response to a question specifically asking him how he reacts to those who say the god of Islam is not the God of Christianity. 

"Mr. President, when you talk about peace in the Middle East, you've often said that freedom is granted by the Almighty," the reporter asked. "Some people who share your beliefs don't believe that Muslims worship the same Almighty. I wonder about your views on that and Mr. Prime Minister's, as a man also of faith, I'd like to get your reaction to that." 

Blair avoided the Christianity-Islam question and instead gave a general answer about freedom. 

"I believe that if people are given the chance to have freedom, whatever part of the world they're in, whatever religion they practice, whatever faith they have, if they're given the chance to have freedom, they welcome it," Blair said. 

Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Ethics & Religious Commission, said that while he respects Bush he believes the president is wrong. 

"Like many other Americans I applaud the president as a man of deep religious faith who attempts to bring that faith conviction to bear on public policy issues," Land told Baptist Press. "However, we should always remember that he is Commander-in-Chief, not theologian-in-chief. And when he says that he believes that Muslims and Christians worship the same God, he is simply mistaken." 

Scripture "is clear" on the issue, Land added. 
"There is one God and His name is Jehovah and His only begotten Son is Jesus Christ of the seed of Abraham and Isaac, whose mother was the Jewess virgin, Mary. Jesus our Savior has made it clear that we must know His Father through faith in Him and Him alone." 

Bush was not asked his thoughts on the Massachusetts court ruling legalizing same-sex "marriage" in the state. 

 2003 Baptist Press 
 2003 Maranatha Christian News Service 
(Post date: November 21, 2003) 




David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)     Nov-28 10:00 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (2 of 26)  
 
  747.2 in reply to 747.1  
 
politics.   keeping the people 'happy.' i wonder if he really and truly believes that.
 
 
 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Nov-28 10:43 am  
To:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    (3 of 26)  
 
  747.3 in reply to 747.2  
 
Hi Amy,

I really struggled with posting that information and comments from President Bush and I almost deleted it but I am really tired of all of the double talk and slide of hand by our nations politicians so I thought that this one and hopefully only time I would post it.




David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 11/28/2003 1:44:10 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
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  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)     Nov-28 11:22 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (4 of 26)  
 
  747.4 in reply to 747.3  
 
I understand, but if he did say it, there is nothing wrong with posting it.  However, we have to take things in context, and realize the media will attempt to make things look different than how they were intended to be at times.  We just have to use discernment.  And too, we have to realize that just because the President says he is 'saved,' it very well could be that he is not...or that he is simply immature in his salvation, [in order to say such a thing].   We can give him the same grace that Christ gives to us in our growing.   We should NOT expect the President to have all the correct answers and doctrine, simply because he is President and claims to belong to Christ.   He has to work out his own salvation, just as we do.  And certainly, heaven forbid if any of us were put under a spiritual microscope the same way.

I THINK the President might be saved, but I can't KNOW it without talking to him directly, and even then...only God REALLY knows his heart...what he believes, whom he serves, etc..

Can you imagine the spiritual chaos that must surround our president on a daily basis?   Just in my own little family, we are presented with spiritual warfare that is so unbelievable!  I really can't imagine what the President has to put up with.  WE MUST PRAY that the enemies of his soul would be bound and not allowed to operate in his life and the lives of his family and those around him; that he would be protected spiritually, mentally, emotionally, and physically; that he would be diligent in prayer and moved to obey Christ Jesus in all things;  that he would be lifted up daily to Christ by thousands of us 'out here;' and that God's will shall be done within his office; and that justice, truth, and life would prevail.

amy

 
 
 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Nov-28 1:51 pm  
To:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    (5 of 26)  
 
  747.5 in reply to 747.4  
 
Hi Amy,

 

Very well spoken!

 

I agree that President Bush needs the freedom to walk his own Christian walk and I do think that he is a Christian although one without much of a grasp on Christianity and seemingly with no concept of End Time Biblical events.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Nov-30 12:28 pm  
To:  ALL   (6 of 26)  
 
  747.6 in reply to 747.1  
 
YOU ARE WRONG MR. BUSH, IT IS A RELIGIOUS WAR! 

By Don Boys, Ph.D. 

No, it is not polite to correct the President of the United States but if he is wrong, he is wrong, and as a representative of Christ, I am required to tell him when he is wrong. As a citizen I also have the right to correct him since he works for me! It is especially incumbent upon me to correct him when his actions are deceptive, dangerous, and even deadly for Americans. 

Yes, we are involved in a religious war because it has been declared against us by various Islamic clerics and leaders and is being carried out by their followers. And everyone knows that the first priority in war is to identify your enemy. Islam is our enemy. Does saying that make me a bigot and hater? Are my motives really important to anyone but me? Don't intelligent people ask,"Is it true?" not "What motivates him?" 

While the President has enormous power, he does not have the power to rewrite history nor does his saying, "black is white" make it true.  The Koran is full of evidence proving me right and the President wrong! I can only assume that Mr. Bush has not read the Koran or the Hadith and if his counselors have done so they are not being truthful with him. Their heads should roll-yesterday! 

The Oct. 22 issue of USA Today blared: 

"Bush to clerics: Muslims aren't enemy." Bush told "moderate" Muslim clerics ("Moderate" is usually a Muslim who doesn't have the power to take control-today.): "Americans know that these terrorists are hiding behind Islam in order to create fear and chaos and death." 

That is not true. Those terrorists are simply following the teachings of the Koran and Hadith and all educated, honest people know that, unless they are blinded by political correctness. 

Then the column mentioned Army Lt. Gen. William Boykin who was quoted as saying that Muslims worship an idol, not a "real God."  Bush distanced himself from that great American when he said that Boykin "didn't reflect my opinion." Bush said. "It just doesn't reflect what the government thinks. And I think they were pleased to hear that." 

Evidently, Mr. Bush, does not know that Allah was the pagan moon god that was worshipped along with 359 other pagan gods in the Kaaba at Mecca. Numerous historians, some Islamic, clearly confirm that historical fact. Are we Christians expected to waltz around the facts to make Muslims more comfortable with their 7th century desert religion?  Doesn't truth matter to politicians? 

The President was correct when he said that the Muslims "were pleased to hear that" he did not support Boykin. Of course they were, and he may have picked up a few "friends" but he will lose me and my vote if he throws Boykin to the wolves. He will lose all informed, thinking Americans if he continues to pander to Muslims by disregarding historical facts to placate Muslims who are determined to destroy America. The TRUE Muslim who follows the historic teaching of the Koran is as vicious as a junkyard dog with PMS. 

Sura 2:193 clearly provides marching orders for every Muslim in the world: 

"And fight them until there is no more (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone)." 

In the event those plain words are not understood, the Hadith footnote in the Koran (published in Madina, Saudi Arabia) says: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people till they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah." 

I could provide numerous such verses as the above but only one more found on page 39 of my Koran: 

"Al-Jihad (holy fighting) is given the utmostimportance in Islam and is one of its pillars (on which it stands). By Jihad Islam is established. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim." 

Now that is what REAL Muslims believe so how can Administration officials affirm that Islam is a peaceful religion that has been hijacked by fanatics? It is obvious the screaming Muslim mobs understand the meaning of Jihad. How can Bush say that the "face of terror is not the true face of Islam" or "Its teachings are good and peaceful"? If those statements are true, let him prove them, after all, simply making the statements do not make them true! If they are false then he should be corrected; after all he is only the President of the United States, not a member of the Trinity! 

I suggest that Mr. Bush recognize that Islam is at war against us although understanding that there are many modernist Muslims who don't follow Islamic teachings. He should be suspicious of anyone who refuses to recognize Arafat as a terrorist; body bombers as vicious killers; financial supporters of terrorist groups as terrorists; female circumcision as sexual mutilation; and Saudi officials as two-faced hypocrites. 

It is time to stop pandering to all things Muslim and recognize that Islam is a Trojan Horse full of the enemy dedicated to making America an Islamic nation. I predict that when the Muslim terrorists strike us again, Bush and Co. will discard the dangerous facade about peaceful Muslims as quickly as long underwear in a Texas heat wave. 

 

Copyright 2003, Don Boys, Ph.D. cstnews.com 

PREACHER HELPS by Evangelist Don Boys, Ph.D., Former Congressman     Copyright 2003, Don Boys #33 




David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  IM4GIVN2   Dec-5 9:52 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (7 of 26)  
 
  747.7 in reply to 747.1  
 
Hi David, President Bush is wrong in saying we all worship the same God, and I NEVER have heard him mention the Name of Jesus! And president Bush is also a fee-mason. What do you say to that? 
Rose
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Dec-6 12:38 am  
To:  IM4GIVN2   (8 of 26)  
 
  747.8 in reply to 747.7  
 
Im trying to avoid politics but I do think President Bush is coming up short  way short for the Christian  Conservative base.

 

As I just logged on the internet tonight there was this add for all these people that are against President Bush.

 

Looks like anther made for TV Drama for a Presidential election and in the end we are sure to get stiffed with another looser.

 

Yes, I agree the Freemasons and the other Secret Societies are poison.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  IM4GIVN2   Dec-6 9:24 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (9 of 26)  
 
  747.9 in reply to 747.8  
 
David, I am not into the politicians, I know what is happening in the world, and I praise the Lord that He is in charge and knows all things! 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Dec-6 10:15 pm  
To:  IM4GIVN2   (10 of 26)  
 
  747.10 in reply to 747.9  
 
Hi,

 

For certain no King but King Jesus!

 

That was the rally cry of our American Revolution war.

 

When the Colonial Patriots were overthrowing the throne of King George of England.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  wyldmutt   Dec-7 8:52 pm  
To:  IM4GIVN2   (11 of 26)  
 
  747.11 in reply to 747.7  
 
Sorry niether Bush is a Freemason. Niether is Freemasons a religion. Freemasonry lacks the basic elements of religion. Freemasonry is not a religion nor is it a substitute for religion. 
Freemasonry advocates no sectarian faith or practise. 
We seek no converts. 
We solicit no new members. 
We raise no money for religious purposes. 
We have no dogma or theology. Religious discussion is forbidden in a masonic lodge thereby eliminating the chance for any masonic dogma to form. 
It offers no sacraments and does not claim to lead to salvation by works, by secret knowledge, or by any other means. The secrets of Freemasonry are concerned with the modes of recognition only and not with the means of salvation. 
By any definition of religion accepted by our critics, we cannot qualify as a religion. 
Freemasonry supports religion. Freemasonry is far from indifferent to religion. Without interfering in religious practise, it expects each member to follow his own faith. 


A man does not subscribe to a new religion, much less to an anti-Christian religion when he becomes a freemason, any more than when he joins any political party or community association. There is nothing in Freemasonry that is opposed to the religion he brings with him into the masonic lodge. Freemasonry does not assert nor does it teach that one religion is as good as another. Freemasonry admits men of all religions. Freemasons believe in religious freedom and that the relationship between the individual and his God is personal, private and sacred. 
We do not apply a theological test to a candidate. We do ask a man if he believes in God and that is the only religious test. Belief in God is faith; belief about God is theology. As freemasons we are interested in faith only and not in theology. Religion is not permitted to be discussed at masonic meetings. 
Freemasonry is a completely tolerant organization. When Freemasonry accepts a Christian, or a Jew, or a Buddhist, or a Mohammedan, it does not accept him as such, but accepts him as a man, worthy to be received into the masonic fraternity. 
Freemasonry stands for the values that are supreme in the life of the church and expects each member to follow his own faith and to place his duty to God above all other duties. We are sure that a member who is true to the principles he learns in Freemasonry will be a better church member because of it. 
  
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From:  wyldmutt   Dec-7 8:54 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)     
 
    
 
One of the criticisms of Freemasonry by anti-Masons is our "charities." 
Anti-Masons claim that our charities are "filthy rags." 

William Schnoebelen writes, "Therefore, in looking at Masonry, we must carefully, but reluctantly, set aside all their charities. These are all 'filthy rags' in God's sight." (Masonry Beyond the Light, page 78) 

The Shriner's motto is: "No man stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." 

The anti-Masons' motto is: "Helping a crippled child is 'filthy rags'." 

Jesus Christ said, "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." (Matthew 7:18. KJV) 

Jesus Christ said; "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethern, ye have done it unto me." (Matthew 25:40. KJV) 

The Shriner's motto is: "No man stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." 

The anti-Masons' motto is: "Helping a burned child is 'filthy rags'." 

Jesus Christ said, "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." (Matthew 7:18. KJV) 

Jesus Christ said; "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethern, ye have done it unto me." (Matthew 25:40. KJV) 

According to the anti-Mason not only are our charities "filthy rags," but we are also pouring our money down "rat holes." 

Willaim Schnoebelen writes, "No doubt, some Masons are giving their money for the best of reasons. However, we must question their judgment. . . they are pouring their resources down a rat hole!" (Masonry Beyond the Light, page 79) 

The Shriner's motto is: "No man stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." 

The anti-Masons' motto is: "Helping a crippled child is 'pouring their resources down a rat hole'." 

Jesus Christ said, "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." (Matthew 7:18. KJV) 

Jesus Christ said; "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethern, ye have done it unto me." (Matthew 25:40. KJV) 

The Shriner's motto is: "No man stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child." 

The anti-Masons' motto is: "Helping a burned child is 'pouring their resources down a rat hole'." 

Jesus Christ said, "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." (Matthew 7:18. KJV) 

Jesus Christ said; "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethern, ye have done it unto me." (Matthew 25:40. KJV) 



Smart Money Magazine 

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/metropolitan/1702111 


A Partial List of Masonic Charities 
Childhood language disorders 

Treatment for birth defects 

Scholarship and direct grants to children and grandchildren of Scottish Rite Masons as well as to members of DeMolay, Job's Daughters, Rainbow for Girls, and other Masonic youth groups 

Research on diabetes 

A summer camp for underprivileged children 

Arteriosclerosis research 

Cancer research 

Training awards for religious leadership and those making religious work their career 

Grants to students at in Schools of Government and Business 

Dental care for handicapped children 

Scholarship assistance to nursing students 

Geriatric research 

Child development for good citizenship and sound character for boys and girls 

Out-patient services for cancer treatment 

Low cost education loans 

Eye surgery and prescription glasses 

Treatment for cancer patients and cancer research support 

Masonic Hospital Visitation Program for V.A. Hospital volunteers 

Research in heart disease, cancer, aging, hypertension, and blood substitutes 

Meeting and performance facilities at the International Peace Garden 

Education of youth about drugs and alcohol 

Ohio Special Olympics 

A non-denominational chapel for mediation and religious services at the International Peace Garden 

Research into the causes and treatment of schizophrenia and related disorders 

Research into auditory perception disorders in children 

A Georgia children's medical Center 

The first public library in the District of Columbia 

Scholarships and fellowships for Ph.D. candidates in Public School Administration 

Support for students seeking degrees in fields associated with service to country and humanity 

Orthopedic services to children through a network of 22 hospitals and treatment for burns victims at four burns centers 

Support for the Muscular Dystrophy Association 

A provider of new shoes for needy Tennessee and Alabama children 

An orthopedic, neuralgic, and child development hospital in Texas 

Operates a clinic for dyslexic and aphasia disorders in children 

Provides needy homeless children in the school district with clothing and toiletries 

The following is a listing of these American Masonic Charities included in the above: 

Abbott Scottish Rite Scholarship Program 
Provides direct grants to children and grandchildren of Scottish Rite masons, as well as members of DeMolay, Job's Daughters, Rainbow Girls, and other Masonic youth groups. 
Supreme Council, 33rd Degree, N.M.J. 
P.O. Box 519 
33 Marrett Road 
Lexington, Massachusetts 02173 
(617) 862-4410 

Amaranth Diabetes Foundation 
(Supports research on diabetes) 
The Supreme Council, Order of the Amaranth 
Mrs. Ethel B. Fry, Supreme Secretary 
2303 Murdoch Avenue 
Parkersburg, West Virginia 26101 
(304) 485-0423 or (304) 428-1565 

Camp Chicota 
A summer camp for underprivileged children 
Grand Lodge of Louisiana, Prince Hall Affiliation 
1335-37 North Boulevard 
Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70821 
(504) 387-0996 

Cryptic Masons Medical Research Foundation 
Supports arteriosclerosis research 

Cryptic Masons Medical Research Foundation 
Marion K. Crum, Executive Secretary 
Route 4, Box 301 
Nashville, Indiana 47448 
(812) 988-8655 

Des Moines Masonic Christmas Day Dinner 
Provides Christmas Day Dinner for the community Masonic Christmas Day Dinner 
Masonic Temple 
1011 Locus Street 
Des Moines, Iowa 50309 
(515) 244-6011 

Eastern Star Cancer Research Project 
Supports cancer research 
General Grand Chapter, Order of the Eastern Star 1618 New Hampshire Avenue, N.W. 
Washington, D.C. 20009-2578 
(202) 667-4737 

Eastern Star Training Awards for Religious Leadership 
Supports those who are making religious work their career General Grand Chapter, Order of the Eastern Star 1618 New Hampshire Avenue, N.W. 
Washington, D.C. 20009-2578 
(202) 667-4737 

General Grand Chapter, Order of the Eastern Star 
Supports the Peace Chapel at the International Peace Garden which provides a non-denominational chapel for meditation and religious services 
General Grand Chapter, Order of the Eastern Star 1618 New Hampshire Avenue, N.W. 
Washington, D.C. 20009-2578 
(202) 667-4737 

George Washington University Grants 
Provides grants to students in the Schools of Government and Business Administration and International Affairs and matching grants for graduate students Supreme Council, 33rd Degree, Southern Jurisdiction 1733 Sixteenth Street, N.W. 
Washington, D.C. 20009-3199 
1-800-SR MASON 

Grotto Dentistry for the Handicapped Program 
Provides dental care to handicapped children 
Supreme Council, M.O.V.P.E.R. 
34 N. Fourth Street 
Columbus, Ohio 43215 
(614) 463-9193 

Illinois Scottish Rite Nursing Scholarships 
Provides scholarship assistance to nursing students throughout the State of Illinois 
Illinois Scottish Rite Fund 
Illinois Council of Deliberation 
915 N. Dearborn Street 
Chicago, Illinois 60610 
(312) 787-7605 

Indiana Masonic Home Foundation 
An endowment which supports the Indiana Masonic Home, a retirement and convalescence center. Located on 360 acres, is home for over 400 residents. 
P. O. Box 44210 
525 North Illinois Street 
Indianapolis, Indiana 46224-0210 
(800) 277-4643 

Indianapolis Scottish Rite Foundation 
Supports geriatric research at the University of Indiana Medical School 
Indianapolis Scottish Rite Bodies 
650 N. Meridian Street 
Indianapolis, Indiana 46204-1294 
(317) 635-2301 

Kansas Masonic Oncology Center 
Provides out-patient services for cancer treatment Kansas Masonic Foundation 
320 West 8th Street 
P.O. Box 1217 
Topeka, Kansas 66601-1217 
(913) 357-7646 

Knights Templar Educational Foundation 
Provides students with low-cost education loans 
5097 Elston Ave, Suite 101 
Chicago, Illinois 60630-2460 
(312) 427-5670 

Knights Templar Eye Foundation 
Supports eye surgery and prescription glasses 
P.O. Box 579 
Springfield, Illinois 62705-0579 
(217) 523-3838 

Minnesota Masonic Cancer Center 
Provides treatment for cancer patients and supports research Masonic Cancer Center Fund, Inc. 
1700 West Highway 36, Suite 610 
Roseville, Minnesota 55113 
(612)639-8433 

Masonic Hospital Visitation Program 
Provides Masonic volunteers to work with patients at Veterans Administration and military hospitals 
Masonic Services Association of the United States 8120 Fenton Street 
Silver Spring, Maryland 20910 
(301) 588-4010 

Masonic Medical Research Laboratory, Utica, New York 
Supports research in heart disease, cancer, aging, hypertension, and blood substitutes 
2150 Bleeker Street 
Utica, New York 13501-1787 
(315) 735-2217 

Masonic Memorial Auditorium, International Peace Garden Provides meeting and performance facilities for visitors Grand Lodge of North Dakota 
201 14th Avenue North 
Fargo, North Dakota 58102 
(701) 235-8321 

National Masonic Foundation for the Prevention of Drug and Alcohol Abuse Among Children 
Supports education for youth about drugs and alcohol 
1629 K Street N.W., Suite 606 
Washington, D.C. 20006 
(202) 331-1933 

Ohio Special Olympics 
The Masonic Grand Lodge of Ohio sponsors every Ohio Special Olympian at these games 
Grand Lodge of Ohio 
P.O. Box 629 
Worthington, Ohio 43085-0629 
(614) 885-5318 

Research In Schizophrenia 
Supports research into the causes and treatment of schizophrenia and related disorders 
Supreme Council, 33rd Degree, N.M.J. 
P.O. Box 519 
33 Marrett Road 
Lexington, Massachusetts 02173 
(617) 862-4410 

Royal Arch Research Assistance Program 
Supports research into auditory perception disorders in children General Grand Chapter, Royal Arch Masons International 111 South 4th Street 
Danville, Kentucky 40423-0489 
(606) 236-0757 

Scottish Rite Children's Medical Center in Georgia Provides generalized and specialized services to children Scottish Rites Children's Medical Center 
1001 Johnson Ferry Road, N.E. 
Atlanta, Georgia 30363 
(404) 256-5252 

Scottish Rite Supreme Council Library 
The first public library in the District of Columbia which today serves the general public as well as international Masonic scholars Supreme Council, 33rd Degree, Southern Jurisdiction 1733 Sixteenth Street, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20009-3199 
1-800-SR MASON 

Shepherd Scholarship 
Supports students seeking degrees in fields associated with service to country and humanity 

Shriners Hospitals for Children and Shriners Burn Institutes 
Provides orthopedic services to children through a network of 22 hospitals and treatment for burns victims at three burns centers, also provides specialized medical services for spinal cord injuries, and cleft palates. 
Direct phone to Shriners Hospitals for Children (USA) 800-237-5055 Shriner Headquarters 
2900 Rocky Point Drive 
Tampa, Florida 33607 
[USA - (800) 282-9161 ] [Canada - (800) 361-7256] [All other areas call collect - (813) 281-0300] 

Tall Cedar Foundation 
Supports the Muscular Dystrophy Association 
Supreme Forest, Tall Cedars of Lebanon 
2609 N. Front Street 
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania 17110 
(717) 232-5991 

Tennessee and Alabama Scottish Rite Shoe Program 
Provides new shoes for need Tennessee and Alabama children Chattanooga Scottish Rite Bodies 
510 Uptain Building 
Chattanooga, Tennessee 37411-4031 
(615) 855-0175 
Birmingham Scottish Rite Bodies 
400 Valley Avenue 
Birmingham, Alabama 35209-3899 
(205) 942-2687 

Texas Scottish Rite Hospital for Children 
Provides orthopedic, neuralgic, and child development services to children in Texas 
Texas Scottish Rite Hospital for Children 
2222 Welborn Street 
Dallas, Texas 75219-9982 
(214) 521-3168 

Masons Assisting Children (MAC) 
Provides needy homeless children in the school district with clothing and toiletries 
Masons Assisting Children 
2200 West Mesquite 
Las Vegas, Nevada 89106 

Scottish Rite Foundation 
Operates a clinic for dyslexic and aphasia disorders in children Scottish Rite Foundation 
2200 West Mesquite 
Las Vegas, Nevada 89106 


Why are anti-Masons so vocal about Masonic charities? Why are anti-Masons willing to condemn Masonic charities as "filthy rags"? In a word "guilt". The only charity the anti-Masons have is "themselves". They are willing to sell their filth about Freemasonry and Masonic charities for a profit. The god of the anti-Masons is the almighty dollar. 
 
From:  IM4GIVN2   Dec-7 11:16 pm  
To:  wyldmutt   (13 of 26)  
 
  747.13 in reply to 747.12  
 
Thank you for the information. I know that free-mason is not christian, and thats all I need to know! There is only one faith, one true God, and one baptism! Jesus Christ is Lord! :) 
  
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  From:  8320john1   Dec-8 4:29 am  
To:  wyldmutt   (14 of 26)  
 
  747.14 in reply to 747.12  
 
What was the founding rationale behind the Free Masons, in this country and where do they stand today as a secret society of the 33rd Degree? 
The works of helps are commendable. No one can speak evil of helping children or aiding in cancer research. 

Are you a Mason? Are you an official apologist for the Masons? Are you a 33rd Degree Mason, and if so, did you take a vow contrary to the Scriptures? Be careful here, you don't want to be caught in a misinformation situation. 

Waiting.
 
  
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  From:  wyldmutt   Dec-8 5:49 am  
To:  8320john1   (15 of 26)  
 
  747.15 in reply to 747.14  
 
Freemasonry is a Brotherhood of Men under the Fatherhood of God, charged with the mission of identifying good men and giving them the opportunities and resources to become better men 
One of Masonry's founding and guiding principles is relief. To give of one's self to help another is one of life's highest attainments. Relief comes in many forms  it could simply be helping a brother in need, or coming to the aid of a widow or an orphan. 

And yes, I am a Mason. An apologist, No. 
No one has the authority to speak officially for Masonry. 
Except the Grand Lodge of a Jurisdiction ie. state of country.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Dec-8 7:26 am  
To:  wyldmutt   (16 of 26)  
 
  747.16 in reply to 747.15  
 
Hi,

 

Freemasonry is a Secret Society and therefore we cannot even consider what you are posting as a valid representation of Freemasonry. We know that you are posting  the Public Propaganda for a very private and very Evil group of people.

 

God Bless you,
David 



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  wyldmutt   Dec-8 9:22 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (17 of 26)  
 
  747.17 in reply to 747.16  
 
That is your opinion. 
But there is no logic in your statement. 
If you stand by your statement that you do not goes on within masonry, you can not say it is evil. 
Since Masonry is made up of men from every walk of like and socio-economic strata, wit the leadership all being freely elected. 
You'd think that it would be splintered apart by now, if they had men of differing ideologis ie good and evil.
 
  
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From:  wyldmutt   Dec-8 9:26 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)     
 
    
 
Religious men of many faiths have spoken in favour of Freemasonry. The following quotations are a small selection. 


I have had the privilege of being a member of many organizations, but none outside of my church has meant more to me than Masonry.... 
All masons obligate themselves to help, aid and assist the poor, the distressed, the widows and orphans. Nor is charity restricted to fellow masons only, but extended to all. It shares the common bonds of race as children of one great Creator, and seeks to unite men of every race, color, sect and opinion. Masonry practices the Golden Rule and seeks always to eliminate divisive forces which build walls between people." 
Dr. James P. Wesberry 
Former Executive Director and Editor of 
the Southern Baptist Publication "Sunday" 

Masonry... a fraternity blessed by God 
by Rev. Fr. Ranhilio C. Aquino 
When I attended one of your ceremonies, I was very pleased to see that "faith in God" plays a central role in your fraternity. I noted with great joy that in your ceremonies you give God's word a position of honor. This, for me, was certainly an encouraging sign. But, of course, the physical presence of the Bible in your ceremonies is not enough. What is more important is God's word in your lives, in your actions, in your decisions. This holds true for all men, including us priests; for we may be surrounded by the physical trappings of religion, but we could have very unreligious, unholy and uncharitable decisions and dispositions towards others. No, it is not enough to give the Bible the marks of honor and respect. It's by far more important to make the divine precepts it contains and the norms for checking the acceptability of our decisions and actions. 
Next, I would like to make it exceedingly clear that, as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, it is not true that one religion is as good as another. That, my brothers and sisters, was exactly one of the fears the Church in the past had about Masonry, for to say that one religion is as good as another would be some sort of religious indifferentism. As a professor of Law, I myself would advocate that sects be given equal status before the law. 
But as far as we Catholics are concernedand now I speak as a Catholic, what was clearly enunciated in the second Vatican Council as part of the dogmatic constitution of the Catholic Church is this: There subsist in the Roman Catholic Church the elements of the true church of Jesus Christ. This means, it is true that one religious sect is as good as any other. If we are sincere Catholics, then we must profess our faith that in the Catholic Church subsist the elements of the true Church of Jesus Christ. My third point is, Religion cannot and should never be a secondary issue. All other issues are, in fact, secondary to religion. Religion should be the primary governing and determinative issue. 
But, my brothers and sisters, we cannot go back to the old days of bigotry towards others. It is, in fact unchristian to assume a position "I'm better than all the rest." It is, indeed, presumptuous to consider ourselves wise and all the rest dumb. Rather, in the face of the truth of Jesus Christ, we should have the humility that allows us to open to others, to dialogue with them, to be hospitable to them. 
If the masonic fraternity is, above all, a fraternity that welcomes all men, well and good. If it is a fraternity by which character is built and moral fiber strengthened, then it can only be a fraternity blessed by God. If its members take their religious duties with utmost seriousness and if, through its light, they make religion the pole star of their actions, the criterion of their decisions and the standard by which their choices and options are resolved, then Masonry can be a fraternity blessed by God. 

"In a day of mistrust, suspicion, discrimination, separation and even hatred, Freemasonry removes the distance between men. Friendship, morality, and brotherly love are the hallmarks of our relationships. There is a basic integrity in the Fraternity so often lacking in many of life's relationships.... Let me quickly and emphatically say that Freemasonry is not and has never been a religion; however, Freemasonry has always been a friend and ally of religion. In 50 years as a minister and as a Mason, I have found no conflict between my masonic beliefs and the Christian faith." 
Bishop Carl J. Sanders 
United Methodist Church 

Why I am a Mason 
The Reverend Louis R. Gant, 33 
District Superintendent 
The United Methodist Church 
"Are you a Mason?" The question was asked by the Master of the local lodge. We were about to do a funeral service together. The answer was easy: "Yes." That same question has been asked, and the same answer given many times in my ministry. Until recently no one ever asked, "Why?" That is a bit harder to answer. But let me try... It was in a little East Texas town that I first encountered a man who called himself a "freemason." 
As I observed his behavior in the community, it was evident to me that he had something and knew something that I wanted to have and know. There was a behavior that seemed to supplement his religious faith. As we talked, it was soon clear that I wanted to become a part of that group of men who called themselves "Masons." There are some things that I don't remember about that night I took that first step toward a rich and rewarding experience that has enhanced my life. But there are some things that I will never forget. There was a foundation of trust...trust in God as the One to whom I could look for support and counsel...trust in a Brother who could lead me in my blindness to the light of understanding. I discovered the reality of prayer as the place to begin before undertaking any task. So I began the journey that through the years was to lead me to a new understanding of myself, my fellow human beings and God. 
On that journey I discovered that I was not searching for some particular religious creed that would set me apart from other people. I was in fact discovering some great principles that would enable me to live life at its very best. Principles like faith...hope...charity...wisdom... beauty...truth. I would discover that there is a universal love and respect for all persons of all religious creeds and beliefs. My Masonry would let me stand with my Brothers as an equal no matter what their theology or religious beliefs. While Masonry has never been a religion for me, it has set before me some very high moral and ethical standards that have supported my religious beliefs. It has also confirmed my duty to "feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and support the widows and orphans." 
While it is impressive to know the extent of Masonry's charitable organizations and agencies that work for healing and health (some say we spend over $1 million a day), it is much more impressive to see a child walk, or a child see, or a child be nursed back to health from a severe burn. Most would not have been able to receive such help had it not been for the benevolent concern of some masons. So I saw duty acted out in deeds. As I remember those early days working in the lodge, I remember the care and support of those fellow lodge members. They made me feel that I was someone special about whom they really cared. Across the years as I have moved to different churches (some United Methodist ministers move a lot), and visited in different lodges in different places, that same feeling of support and Brotherhood has been there. 
Because of my position in the Church and membership in the lodge, I have always felt wanted and accepted. That's a very special feeling! While this great Country of ours has felt the impact of leaders who have been masons, much of what Masonry represents is seen in those men who have lived the principles of Freemasonry in their respective communities. On my journey I have met some of them. One of them was Ben LeNorman, whose honesty was known and respected. He was an example to the youth of the little town where he lived. That example brought many a young man to knock on Masonry's door. Another was Don Davis, whose compassion for those who were hurting was unsurpassed. He would give of his time and money so that a crippled child might have dignity and health. He was willing to reach out to help anyone who might be hurting. No time was too valuable to give. No distance was too far to fly or drive. No effort was too great to make. When he heard the cry for help, he was ready to respond. These were good men who were better men because they were masons. Neither of them will have their names in the books of history, but they will always be remembered by those whose lives they touched. And the best thing is that you know these men. Their names may be different, but they are a part of every lodge and live in every corner of this great land of ours. They are those who believe that Masonry is not something to commit to memory, it is something to live. You never hear it in their boasting...you see it in their living. 
So the question "Why are you a Mason?" can be answered. It has allowed me to grow personally...to serve my God...and to reach out in concern to my fellow human beings. It has supported my personal faith and work as a churchman. Let no one say you cannot be a Christian and a Mason at the same time. I know too many who are both and proud to be both. Ben was...Don was...I am. I will always be glad that one day in a little East Texas town.... 

What Freemasonry means to me 
The Reverend Dr. Norman Vincent Peale, 33 
I recently received a letter in which the writer asked: "Why are you a freemason?" The question caused me to think and reaffirm my feelings about Masonry. At first I thought about my own forebears. My grandfather was a mason for 50 years, my father for 50 years, and I have been a mason for 60 years. This means that my tie with Freemasonry extends back to 1869 when my grandfather joined the masons. My feelings on my first entrance into a masonic lodge are very clear in memory. I was a young man and it was a great thrill to kneel before the altar of the lodge to become a freemason. This must have been the same feeling my father and grandfather experienced before me. 
And it must also have been identical to the one that many great leaders of America and the world felt as they became masons. Prominent among this select group are George Washington, Harry Truman, and 12 other Presidents as well as countless statesmen and benefactors of humanity. So I found myself thinking: "What does Freemasonry mean to me?" 
Of course masons say that Freemasonry actually begins in each individual mason's heart. I take this to mean a response to brotherhood and the highest ideals. I recall the story of a man who came to me once and said: "I see that you are a freemason. So am I." 
As we talked, he told me of an experience he had years ago. It seems that he joined the masonic fraternity shortly after he became 21 years old. When he was stationed in the military, he decided to attend various lodge meetings. On his first visit to a lodge in a strange city, he was a bit nervous. One thought was constantly in his mind; could he pass the examination to show that he was a mason? As the committee was carefully examining his credentials, one of the members looked him squarely in the eye and said: "Obviously you know the ritual, so you can enter our lodge as a Brother Mason. But I have one more question. Where were you made a mason?" With that he told the young visitor to think about it because when he knew the answer the examiner would not have to hear it. He would see it in his eyes. 
My friend told me that after a couple of minutes a big smile came to his face and he looked at the examiner, who said: "That's right, in your heart." "Through masonic teachings, good men practice love and charity. As a fraternity they spend millions of dollars..." Freemasonry is not a religion though, in my experience, masons have predominately been religious men and, for the most part, of the Christian faith. 
Through Freemasonry, however, I have had opportunity to break bread with good men of other than my own Christian faith. Freemasonry does not promote any one religious creed. All masons believe in the Deity without reservation. However, Masonry makes no demands as to how a member thinks of the Great Architect of the Universe. Freemasonry is, for all its members, a supplement to good living which has enhanced the lives of millions who have entered its doors. Though it is not a religion, as such, it supplements faith in God the Creator. It is supporting of morality and virtue. Freemasonry has no dogma or theology. It offers no sacraments. It teaches that it is important for every man to have a religion of his own choice and to be faithful to it in thought and action. As a result, men of different religions meet in fellowship and brotherhood under the fatherhood of God. I think that a good Mason is made even more faithful to the tenets of his faith by his membership in the lodge. 
Freemasonry is much more than a social organization. Through masonic teachings, good men practice love and charity. As a Fraternity they spend millions of dollars to support hospitals, childhood language disorders clinics, and research into problems that plague man's physical and mental being. Whenever I visit a masonic hospital, of which there are many, my eyes fill with tears. As I see a youngster, who could not walk, now able to get from one end of the corridor to the other with the aid of an artificial leg, I am thrilled. For a young person to have the opportunity to become whole and productive is to me exciting and wonderful. And this opportunity is given at no cost to his or her family or the state. Living is beautiful but sometimes life can be harsh and cruel. Whenever or wherever people are in need masons are there to help. From large undertakings to the smallest of needs, masons are always there, caring and serving. I have always been interested as to why masons devote so much time to their Fraternity. A good answer to this question came from a Grand Master who once told me that he enjoys his involvement because it gives him another dimension to living. 
The same answer is echoed by Brethren as they meet in lodge rooms from one end of our Country to the other and around the world. Many of my best friends, associates, and fellow Christians are Freemasons and good churchmen as well. In my travels at home and abroad a goodly number of Freemasons notice my masonic ring, which I always wear. With pride they say: "I, too, am a Freemason." To me, Freemasonry is one form of dedication to God and service to humanity. I too was a Freemason in my heart and so I will remain. I am proud of my involvement. I am proud to walk in fraternal fellowship with my Brethren. 

Why am I a Freemason? Simply because I am proud to be a man who wants to keep the moral standards of life at high level and leave something behind so others will benefit. Only as I, personally, become better, can I help others to do the same. "I was brought up in a religious home, a son of a Rabbi with seven generations of Rabbis preceding me; and yet with this religious background, I felt I could still derive much from and give much to this Fraternity for the good and welfare of mankind.... 
My experience has shown me that masons are for the most part religious men. I am proud to be a Mason and proud to be a part of an organization that is devoted to helping widows and orphans primarily, and also those who are in need without question or embarrassment.... I am proud to be a Mason who believes in the dignity of God's children and opposes hatred and bigotry, and stands for truth, justice, kindness, integrity and righteousness for all." 
Rabbi Seymour Atlas 

"Of course, he would be naive indeed who would declare that what Masonry meant to him it would necessarily mean to every other Mason. The author does not know it all, or anywhere near the all of Masonry; his book might well be called 'What Masonry Means To Me'." 
"However, he claims to possess no 'authority' because of such studies; if he is right in his conclusions, they are completely valid to him alone." 
"I AND I ALONE, am responsible for my own interpretations of masonic teachings. Masonry does not proclaim any particular techniques whereby the Builder shall construct his spiritual edifice." 
"The writer knows that the masonic reader should not and will not take what he has said 'on authority';...." 
Lyn Perkins 
Masonic writer 

"One of the usual errors regarding Masonry and religion is the confusion on the part of many non-Masons and a few masons that Masonry is a religion." 
LeRoy C. Brandt, Ph.D., Pastor 
Reformed Church 
Delmar, New York 

"I like the statement which I have heard and read many times, 'Masonry is religious but Masonry is not a religion.' Much of the criticism of Masonry has come because some of the masons have not understood this statement. A few of the Craft have tried to make it a religion and it was never meant to be such. For example, we are not supposed to admit to our degrees men who are not already GOOD men. Masonry seeks to make GOOD men BETTER," 
John W. Dowdy, D.D., Pastor 
First Baptist Church 
Guthrie, Oklahoma 

"A mason is a man who professes a faith in God. As a man of faith, he uses the tools of moral and ethical truths to serve mankind. A mason binds himself to like-minded men in a brotherhood that transcends all religious, ethnic, social, cultural, and educational differences. 
"In fellowship with his Brothers, a Mason finds ways in which to serve his God, his family, his fellowman, and his country. A Mason is dedicated. He recognizes his responsibility for justice, truth, charity, enlightenment, freedom and liberty, honesty and integrity in all aspects of human endeavor. A Mason is such a man." 
Rev. Jim Bilbrey, Ph.D. 
ULC Congregation 60641 

From:  David (DavidABrown)    Dec-8 3:44 pm  
To:  wyldmutt   (20 of 26)  
 
  747.20 in reply to 747.19  
 
Since Freemasonry is a Secret Society None of those men and including you are capable of Speaking for Freemasonry therefore each of your are Presenting uninformed and certainly incomplete concepts of Freemasonry.

 

Yes, you and them are being used to post a cover story and that is Really Sad because it makes you and them ENABLERS of their Evil Secret deeds.

 

Sorry but you and those others are being Used for the selfish hidden gains of others.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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From:  wyldmutt   Dec-8 6:11 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (21 of 26)  
 
  747.21 in reply to 747.20  
 
Really, so tell us all who speaks for masonry, and where did you get all your knowledge about it, that you so arrogontly seam to know more than then members themselves. 
Do you even have a clue on WHO are any of its leaders, in any jurisdiction. 

Do you know how a grand Lodge works or who its members are. 

Do you have an idea how the Scottish Rite, York Rite or Shrine interrelate to Masonry. 

Are you arware of how members attain any of the honorary titles of degrees. 

How smug you are knowing so much about an " secret organization" that even its members don't. 

How tuely sad it is to seea " Christian" use such poor logic and apologetic skills. 

I how this is not a forum that deletes post that are too hard to answer..... 

Oh by the way I will answer anything about the fraternity I can.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Dec-9 1:38 pm  
To:  wyldmutt   (22 of 26)  
 
  747.22 in reply to 747.21  
 
Hi,

 

Your own posting is proving my point.

 

You just proved that Freemasonry is a fragmented splintered and hidden Group by Design. The various Rights (Scottish Rite, York Rite) and the various accompanying Degrees within each right are a built in system of secrecy. A low order person say a 1st degree Scottish Right person is not included in the circle of knowledge with a 15th degree Scottish Right person and so on and so on And the 23rd or whatever Degree that is the Highest public Degree is not the end as there are other Degrees and Rights and Associations that are even more Secret.

 

Because Freemasonry is a secret and a controlling and manipulating society you cannot Answer public questions about your group. Especially since their own secrecy keeps you uninformed about your own group.

 

Christianity on the other Hand is as Open as can possibly be. The entire sum of Christianity doctrine, practices, principals and thought is Published in one open Book the Bible.

 

Face it Freemasonry is a secret Society Government unto itself that is at odds with others Individual Freedoms and it is at odds with the Christian Church.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  wyldmutt   Dec-9 2:12 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (23 of 26)  
 
  747.23 in reply to 747.22  
 
Thanks for proving my point. 
You really don't kmow anything about Freemasonry. 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Dec-9 2:35 pm  
To:  wyldmutt   (24 of 26)  
 
  747.24 in reply to 747.23  
 
Great since you want to be so helpful about Freemasonry.

 

How about explaining the groups secret symbols, codewords, handshakes and phrases and what is the significance behind these secret and select practices. Practices that change as one progresses along the various Rights and Degrees.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  wyldmutt   Dec-9 5:00 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (25 of 26)  
 
  747.25 in reply to 747.24  
 
Practices that change, Really. 
And which ones do you refer to. 
And if you were correct, don't you believe that the millions of men would have a problem with being lied to. 
The vast majority of us have been proud to support charities that have benifited society at large and at no cost. 
And what would you say about our charities. 
Filling the vaccum that so far no one else has bothered to fill. 

So far you've shown a complete lack of knowledge about Freemasonry. 
I'm sure that you can parrot all the anti sites out there. 
Good "chirstian sites that have been know to misinform, reinterpet and out and out lie about Freemasonry. 

Maybe if you did a little home work about what the official authorities of Freemasonry said and did. We could discuss the particulars about those items. 

So far you have not bothered to answer any questio ns that I have possed to you. 

 
  
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   From:  wyldmutt   Dec-9 5:08 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (26 of 26)  
 
  747.26 in reply to 747.22  
 
Regardless, all regular Masonic bodies consider the degree of Master Mason to be the 'highest degree' of Masonry. There is none 'higher'! The degrees are sometimes referred to by their numerical sequence: first, second, third. 
As Freemasonry evolved through the centuries, some felt that additional instructions as to the various lessons taught in Craft Lodge. These would not make a man 'any more of a Mason' than he already was as a Master Mason, but would be an opportunity for additional contemplation on the lessons taught in the first three degrees. Scottish Rite degrees are numbered 4-33 with the 33rd Degree being honorary. As all Masons understand, a 32nd or 33rd Degree Mason is no 'more a Mason' than any Master Mason! In European Scottish Rite bodies, attainment of each degree may take months or years while in the United States, degrees are often conferred during special weekend 'convocations'. 
Conceptually, the York Rite is similar to the Scottish Rite in that it provides an opportunity for additional contemplation on the lessons taught in Craft Masonry. There are fewer York Rite Degrees than Scottish Rite and they're not numbered. The 'apex' of York Rite Masonry is the degree of Knight Templar but again, a KT is no 'more a Mason' than that of Master Mason. 

 
  
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